Quarterback Vs. Pitcher Vs. Bench Press

We had a great question come in regarding our Blog last week; why we exclude bench press in our Baseball players’ strength programs (if you missed it, check out that Blog here)

The question was: Was having a similar conversation today about QBs and bench press. What do you think?

Here is my response:

While quarterbacks have similar stresses on their shoulders as pitchers, those stresses are a lot less than that of a pitcher. The record velocity for a quarterback throw is ~60mph whereas the highest recorded MLB pitch is ~105mph; they are in completely different ballparks (pardon the pun!). Because of this, throwing injuries are also a lot less common in quarterbacks. If we look at a study by Dodson, C.C; ET. Al  there are only 10 reported cases of UCL tears in NFL quarterbacks between 1994-2008 vs. 36 UCL tears in MLB pitchers in the 2015 & 2016 seasons alone! The majority of injuries NFL quarterbacks sustain occur through direct contact, ~82.3% (according to a study by Kelly, B.T.; ET. Al.) while overuse injuries account for less than 15% of injuries.

Another thing we have to consider is that most quarterbacks take long breaks from throwing in the off-season while pitchers (especially younger ones) have a tendency to jump the gun on their throwing programs and (in my opinion) on average do not let their shoulders recover long enough in the off-season.

What this tells me is that the durability of a quarterback’s shoulder is much higher than that of a pitcher’s and can more than likely sustain higher stresses off the field in the gym. While it may be a good idea to avoid bench press for similar reasons as our baseball players do (exacerbates negative adaptations from throwing, too far away from throwing motion on force-velocity curve, and failure on a heavy rep puts the shoulder in a vulnerable position), having bench press in a quarterback’s program is probably less likely to causes negative performance outcomes on the field. Which is, arguably, the most important thing to look for when choosing exercises for your athletes.

Keep an eye out for Part 2 of our Bench Press vs. Baseball Blog where we will show you pressing exercises much more suited to overhead throwing athletes, quarterbacks included!

If you have any questions or comments about this or any of our other blogs let us know in our comments section or send our author an email directly (cplewes@sstcanada.com)!

 

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Qualities of a Good Quarterback Part 1

 

I know I’m going to restart the old debate with this question: “Why aren’t there any Canadian Quarterbacks in the CFL?” I’m sure you’ve heard a multitude of opinions on this issue; some you probably agree with, others just don’t ring true. I firmly believe there is more than one answer to the Canadian QB Question.

One thing I do know for sure is that we coaches need to do a better job of instructing our young Canadian Quarterbacks. I’m not just referring to high school athletes. I think good serious training can start as young as 8 to 13 years old. This is a great age, when kids are prime for both physical and mental development.

What can we do? Over the upcoming weeks this five-part series on Quarterback development will cover:

  1. Qualities of a good Quarterback, Part 1
  2. Qualities of a good Quarterback, Part 2
  3. Drops, drills and technique
  4. Throwing mechanics, Part 1
  5. Throwing mechanics, Part 2

Many people believe a good Quarterback is the player who can throw the furthest. Don’t laugh…I was at an all-star camp and was asked by the head coach to have the Quarterbacks just drop and throw as far as they could. They chose their starting Quarterback from this one drill!

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What are some things I look for when choosing a Quarterback?

Mental and Physical Toughness

QBs often get all the glory when things are going well, but they also take most of the grief when a team is not performing up to par. I want to see a QB’s reaction after he throws an interception or after he throws a few bad balls. How does he react and how does he try to overcome this bad bout? The great Quarterbacks are able to come right back to lead their team down the field, letting go of what just happened.

Can the Quarterback stand back there waiting to throw the perfect ball knowing, that because he has to hold on to the last second, he’s going to get hit hard? Over the years I have played with some great Quarterbacks and have had the opportunity to watch numerous others. One strong characteristic that is common to all the great ones is that they will take the hit for the team. There is no better way to gain the respect of teammates than this. Let’s be honest, football is a physical game but most Quarterbacks are untouchable during practice, while everyone else is suffering full contact! Not only is this a good way to gain the respect of your team but, at the same time, you let the opponent know that whatever they do, they cannot rattle this Quarterback.

What kind of athletic ability does he have?

There are going to be numerous times in a game when things breakdown, such as when the WRs fall down, or when someone doesn’t pick up that safety blitz. A QB needs to be able to improvise and create under pressure.

Seldom does a Quarterback just drop back and throw without having to deal with external factors, such as linemen in his face. This is why I have our young Quarterbacks practice throwing off-balance and from awkward positions. Don’t get me wrong, our athletes practice the proper mechanics of throwing at least 95% of the time during camps, but they need to be prepared to throw even when things breakdown.

Excellent Quarterback ability doesn’t mean just running a great 40-yard dash. I want to see a QB who can create more time in the pocket. Take a look at great Hall of Fame’s football great, Dan Marino. Marino could have used a sundial to time his forty, but, man, could he avoid rushes with little movements in the pocket, and then throw darts all over the field!

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Manage a Game

Quarterbacks such as Tom Brady are great game-managers on the football field. Good QBs take what the defense gives them; they rarely force throws and ultimately they make good decisions. Good game-managing Quarterbacks exude confidence, which will spill over to every other player on his team. More and more coaches understand that they can’t count on the Quarterback to win the game on his own. If they surround the QB with good talent they just need the QB to distribute the ball to the playmakers.

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In the coming weeks we will discuss one attribute that is MUST for all successful QBs!

Please visit www.qbcanada.com for additional information on our upcoming camps!!

The Death of the Modern Day QB?

The Death of the Modern Day QB………. What?

I just finished watching film of Peyton Manning break 70,000 all-time yards and win on a miraculous play on Thursday night football. For every Peyton, Tom Brady, Big Ben and Andrew Luck there are Jamarcus Russell’s, Akili Smiths, Tim Couches, Ryan Leafs, and the list goes on of highly drafted NFL “busts”. Unfortunately these QB’s did not have illustrious careers for a multitude of reasons, and to pinpoint accurately after the fact is still a challenge, even with the advantage of hindsight. But one reason that might have been characteristic of all of them is their being “system” QB’s.

What does this mean and what is happening?

What are some of the issues and challenges in developing NFL QB’s?

1. QB’s do not play under center- unlike the NFL where QB’s go under center frequently, high school and college spread QB’s seldom take a snap from center. Why is this a concern? QB’s do not learn how to play with their backs to the defense for that split second. They do not learn how to properly drop. Personally, as a former QB I hated being in the gun as I got lazy with my drop mechanics and I see the same thing now when watching high school and college spread QB’S

QB’s and offences are about timing-drop 1 2 3 and throw- or set up and go through your progressions. Spread QBs’ legs sometimes get what I call “cement feet” – feet that don’t move because they simply don’t have to

2. Spread QB’s don’t have to think at the line of scrimmage…..what’s occurring is that the offence sets on the ball in a no huddle attack. Defense sets and then the offence all looks over to the coach for the proper play he has devised versus that particular defense. This has taken away the post-snap decision making of QB’s that is essential to becoming an NFL QB.

3. NFL defenses are way too fast for the spread- unlike college and high school – in the pros QB’s are playing against the best of the best…one thing NFL manager’s look for is team speed.

Remember a few years back when Colin Kaepernick took the league by storm running the spread and zone read….NFL Defensive coordinators have figured it out and as result Colin and the 49ers have struggled. In fact last Monday night the 49ers player with 3 TE’s a majority of the time and pounded the rock with Carlos Hyde…outcome- they controlled the clock…managed Colin’s mistakes and the 49ers were victorious.

Another reason – the “Robo” QB

As a QB coach I have fallen into this trap over the years but have changed my philosophy over the past few years. What do I mean with Robo QB? We try and make each QB have the most perfect mechanics and harp on this so much that we sometimes forget to let the kids play and react. Don’t get me wrong, all great QB’s have superlative mechanics to ensure the most important quality a qb must possess: ACCURACY- This is to me is the difference between good and great. Great QB’s with accuracy are able to place a ball on what I call a dime!

The issue is that we as QB coaches are paralyzing some of these young kids. Look at Phillip Rivers- his throwing mechanics are unorthodox but he makes it work. If it works at an age past puberty, refine their technique somewhat but don’t overburden the athlete. Remember it takes 3000 perfect reps to change the hardwiring in someone’s body. The problem arises with QB’s and other positions in sports in that the athlete will revert back to their mechanics taught at a young age. Thus it is imperative as coaches that we stress and teach proper mechanics BEFORE PUBERTY. But once it sets in, let “perfection” go and now change your approach to working with what the QB has – they can still get better. Look at MLB pitchers – MANY of them have unorthodox mechanics or at least what people would say are not “perfect” ones, but they are in the big leagues while tens of thousands with “better looking” mechanics are on the outside looking in at being a pro. Why? They have figured out how to use what they have such that they have bridged the gap and zoomed past those with “prettier” deliveries. This can be done in football too, so beware of taking too much time trying to create the next Robo-QB – you may be better off working on other areas with them. I use this saying to teach…before puberty there are many highway lanes and they are all open but the further we age from puberty the less lanes and more congestion there is within the nervous system of the body. Find the paved, clear highway and take it.

As stated above, I myself am a spread offensive coach and one of the reasons is that it is easier for a QB to determine reads and play at a high speed. Why do I do this? We at the younger level of football do not have the ability to teach/practice with kids 8 hours per day like we do in the pro ranks. We just don’t. And fluffing it for 10-20 minutes a week in practice doesn’t do too much good unless the kid is going to take it himself and work the other 1200 minutes on it on his own. If he does, great. But if not, more and more as time goes on, the chances of making them better mechanically shrinks and shrinks.

Hey don’t get me wrong. Mechanics can be improved later in life but progress will be slower and minimal. But what has happened with me and definitely with high school and college coaches across North America is less time is being spent on developing prototypical pro QB’s and more has been put into developing them to run an incredibly successful system. The thing is, this system does not always translate to the NFL, so the question is, what is the long term outlook on developing prototypical QB’s for the league? I don’t know, but it will be interesting to see what develops over the next ten years or so. History tells us that the future doesn’t always quite work out the way we think it will, but only time will tell.

Agree or disagree- I would love to hear it as I am open to all learning experiences!

Larry Jusdanis is the proud owner of Sports Specific Training (the largest sports training company in Canada) and QB Canada- Ranked as the #1 QB Academy in Canada

Coach Mike and Will Finch will be holding a Qb mechanics class every Monday- starting in June

Click here for Mike’s 101 Mechanics

www.Qbcanada.com

www.sst.training

Fat loss….Try CLA

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CLA is an essential fatty acid found in beef, ground turkey, lamb, cheese and milk. To get the optimal amount of CLA needed you would have to consume huge amount of these foods, adding too many calories which is counteractive for weight loss. Supplementing with CLA is an excellent alternative, with the added benefit of acting as an antioxidant and immune system enhancer.

Additional benefits of CLA:

· Cancer: studies show as little as 0.5% of CLA in the diet reduces tumors by 50%

· Reduced risk of cardiovascular disease

· Lowers blood pressure

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· Reduces inflammation

· Body composition (lowers body fat & increases lean body mass, especially in those who exercise regularly)

CFL Combine Blog Dillon Guy

Dillon Guy snow

 

My conclusion to the first phase of my training and preparation for the upcoming CFL combine and season. I feel that this would be a good time to check in and share my progress through this blog.

I am roughly two months out of ACL surgery and I can honestly say that I feel great and am always pushing myself to go above and beyond the ” Norm” . To define what the “Norm”  means , the best way to describe it is by simply doing what is expected. There is nothing wrong with doing the norm, if you’re content with just being average.  Personally I never am ok with the thought of being just average and when I look at the “Norm” I see it as a barrier that can be broken through. For example just being 7 weeks out of surgery I began to deadlift which consisted of 6 sets of 5 to 8 reps at the weight of 365. Now keep in mind that The staff here kept a close eye on each rep to ensure that I kept great form and to cut me off at any sign of compensation in  the left leg. To do this I must have incredible discipline in your nutrition and in the recovery process . Think of your body as a high end luxury sports  car.  To drive it the car requires supreme gas not the standard unleaded 87 gas. The human body is no different, as you cannot possibly expect to perform  at a high level if you put crap in your body. At Sst they put a huge emphasis on your nutrition because of the great importance it has on the athletes performance and recovery . 

QB Canada Announcement

As the #1 ranked QB camp in Canada we are always striving to be the best and develop our QBs

With this in mind, QB Canada is happy to announce that Will Finch has joined our staff of QB coaches

Will has been with QB Canada since grade 7 and has had an illustrious career at Western University

Unfortunately, Will had to retire last week  but he is excited to join our QB Canada Staff and help find the NEXT GREAT CANADIAN QB

Will , Coach Mike and the Big Dawg will be coaching at QB Canada’s Winter camp starting Monday February 1st 2016

There are only 6 spots left in the # 1 rated QB camp…Please contact us ASAP

Please email larry@sstcanada.com to register or act now

REGISTER HERE

will and mike Finch

Have a Great SST DAY from Will , Mike and Larry!

CFL combine blog- Dillon Guy–ACL recovery–ahead of schedule!

Dillon Guy 1

Looking back to the first time I put on football pads I have had two goals I wanted to reach. The first was achieving a scholarship to play college football in the states and the second was to play football at the professional level. Over the past 5 years I achieved my first goal; playing college football for the University of Buffalo. I now look towards the goal of playing football in the CFL. During my journey, I will be using this blog throughout my training, leading up to the combine and training camp.

Having played college football in the states, they’re a lot of factors that I have walked away with; one of them being the mindset of training. With that being said, theirs only one place where i know I can train at that shares that same mindset. When I was going into my senior year of high school i trained at SST’s Hamilton location . There training made me physically and mentally prepared to not only play college football in the states, but to thrive in that atmosphere.

When I was presented the opportunity to once again train at SST ,with Larry ,who is a top calibre strength coach, I knew that it would be the perfect situation.

Since Monday I have been on a daily routine that consists of multiple session of training . This was approached with the mentality of pushing your body to its full potential and breaking through barriers that may present itself. After the training sessions I began a treatment session where the people of Proactive Athlete take care of the body and help it recover. With the first week now over , I am already looking forward to starting back up on the Monday .

Dillon Guy

U of Buffalo

How to Decrease Your 40 Yard Dash Time- Part 2

How to Decrease Your 40 Yard Dash Time in the Weight room – Part II

In Part I of this article readers were introduced to the concept that strength = speed. Specifically, football players wishing to decrease their 40 yard dash time were told to focus on strengthening their lower back, hamstring and VMO muscles (teardrop muscle found on the inside of the quadriceps). Part I reviewed the best exercises for strengthening lower back and hamstring muscles, so let’s move on to the top three exercises for developing VMO strength: squats with chains, wobble board split squats and sled dragging.

Exercise #1 – Squats with chains

If you improve your speed during the first 10 yards of your 40 yard dash then half your battle is over. In the first 10 yards, it’s all about quads and glutes so choose exercises that specifically work these muscle groups. SST suggests squats with chains.

When SST says “squats”, we don’t mean those quarter or 90 degree squats that most trainers advocate, we mean good old-fashioned rock bottom squats. Why? It’s simple; rock bottom squats do a better job of developing glutes and quads (especially the VMO).

To further increase the effectiveness of the squat, SST has their athletes perform squats with chains. During a squat an athlete is strongest in the top position and weakest at the bottom. By using chains, SST compensates for the strength curve by matching weight to strength levels. For example, say you’re squatting 300lbs plus 50lbs of chains. At the top, when you are your strongest, the chains are hanging so you are lifting 350lbs. As you squat down and your strength level decreases, you are only lifting 300lbs because the chains are resting on the ground.

Results: Increase VMO strength, decrease ground contact time, improve strength & speed during first 10 yards of the 40 yard dash

Description: Start with chest out and lower back arched. Begin to drop hips to ground by first bending knees as far forward as possible and then lowering hips until hamstrings cover calves. Pause for 1 second at bottom. Lift up through legs while maintaining arched back. Feet must remain flat on the ground at all times.

Variations: 1 ¼ squats, front squats with and without chains, back squats with bands and jump squats

Exercise #2- Wobbleboard Split Squats

You’re probably thinking “What the heck is a split squat”. Split squats are a lunge without the explosiveness. What’s a wobbleboard? Imagine a small board with a hard ball stuck under it (it’s not exactly that, but you get the idea). By performing split squats on a wobbleboard you are training your leg muscles from the hip joint down in an unstable environment. Destabilizing your leg muscles ensures that your VMO gets blasted…in a good way of course. It also allows you to recruit more leg muscles than you would have had you been training in stable environment.

Results: Increase VMO strength, stabilize muscle strength in legs, decrease ground contact time

Description: Starting position: place foot of non-dominant leg on wobbleboard. With chest out and shoulders back, move hips forward and downward while remaining upright. Allow the front knee to travel over toe of front foot until hamstring is covering the calf. Pause for a second then push off heel of front foot back to starting position. Repeat. The challenge is to keep the sides of the wobbleboard from touching the ground.

Variations: sitfit split squats, wobbleboard/sitfit split squats with dumbbells (only when you are good enough at balancing) and split squats with low pulley cable for added resistance

Exercise #3- Sled Dragging

Sled dragging is a great way to increase functional strength if you don’t have a weightroom facility at your disposal. Mind you, SST does not advocate running with a sled behind you because it will alter your running form. The various sled exercises used by SST for speed training are too numerous to list in the article, thus we will focus on two of our most popular: walking backwards on the balls of your feet and walking lunges.

Results: Increase maximum speed and decrease ground contact time

Description: Walking Backwards – fasten harness around waist. Keep chest over feet. Maintain arched back. Bend hips and knees. Begin by taking slow, deliberate steps backwards. Move arms in a running motion. Word to the wise, this exercise will feel really easy for the first ten yards but by the time you reach forty yards, your quads (especially your VMO) will be screaming. Once you are able to cover 100 yds with ease slowly add weight to the sled.

Walking Lunges – fasten belt around waste and attach rope from harness to belt. With sled dragging behind, perform a lunge with front leg. Upon landing explode upwards and out. Do not just pop up, the key is to push up and forward. Coaching Tips: keep your front heel down, maintain an upright posture and EXPLODE!

Larry Jusdanis is the owner of Sports Specific Training (SST) the #1 rated speed program in Canada!

For more information about Sports Specific Training’s training programs please visit www.sstcanada.com

How to improve your 40 yard dash- Part 1

If you want to go places in football, then you had better work on your 40 yard dash. While the forty yard dash is probably the most overrated test, it’s also the test that most coaches rely on when scouting a player. Given the emphasis that is placed on this one test, I am surprised at how many athletes come to combines and camps unprepared. I see athletes wearing the wrong shoes or the wrong clothes and I can tell that many of them don’t know the proper starting technique or running mechanics. Furthermore, it’s obvious that most players haven’t done any effective speed or strength training leading up to the big day. I tell my athletes that they have to consider the forty yard dash as a job interview that could land them a scholarship or millions of dollars when their stock goes up in the draft. Remember that first impressions mean everything, so plan ahead and be prepared to run like a professional. Don’t get me wrong, running a great 40 yard dash doesn’t mean that you’re automatically a great football player, but it will turn heads and give you the chance needed to show universities or professional teams what you can do on the field.

When training for the 40 yard dash, players tend to forget how important it is to be STRONG! I have yet to see a weak player run a great forty yard dash. As a Sports Performance Coach I know through personal experience that players who speed and strength train on a continuous basis will experience dramatic gains over those who only focus on speed training. One athlete who followed SST’s 12-week speed and strength training program went from a 5.05 to a 4.62 at the National football combines this year.

There are three main factors that SST considers when designing a strength training program for football players who want to decrease their forty yard dash time. First, we assess the player’s experience and abilities. Factors such as age, previous training experience, fitness level and amount of time available for training are considered. Next, we evaluate the player’s 40 yard dash to determine weaknesses. Do we need to improve his start, decrease his ground contact time or work on reaching maximum speed? Lastly, we focus on strengthening the player’s weakest muscles. As a general rule SST has found that football players tend to have weak lower back, hamstring and VMO muscle (VMO, or vastus medialis, is the teardrop muscle found on the inside of the quadriceps), therefore for the purpose of this article we will highlight , what we believe to be, the top six exercises designed to strengthen these muscles.

In Part I of this two part article, I will explain the first three exercises: snatch grip deadlifts, tire flipping and Olympic lifts and their derivatives. These exercises strengthen lower back and hamstring muscles which are key components for achieving maximum speed.

Exercise #1 – Snatch Grip Deadlifts

If I had to choose only one strength training exercise to improve a player’s 40 yard dash time, I would pick snatch grip deadlifts because they work the entire posterior chain (lower back and hamstrings). Snatch grip deadlifts are a bit different than your traditional deadlift in that they recruit more of the hamstrings due to the angle of the trunk and a wider grip.

Results: improve start, increase maximum speed

Description: Starting position- feet are shoulder width apart. Grip is wider than your traditional grip. Elbows are turned out. Shoulder blades are retracted. Knees over the bar. Chest and shoulders over the bar. Lower back is arched. Initiate lift with hamstrings and lower back. Maintain lower back arch throughout. Keep bar path straight.

Variations: snatch grip deadlifts off a podium, snatch grip deadlifts with chains and traditional deadlifts.

Exercise #2 – Tire Flipping

Tire flipping is not your traditional weight room exercise but it’s a functional way to develop the posterior chain (lower back and hamstrings). This is a grueling exercise that has lot of return for its effort.

Results: improve grip strength, decrease 40 time (after 12 weeks SST athletes decreased their 40 time by up to 3 tenths)

Description: Start in a deadlift position and grab the tire from underneath (fingers under the tire). Lift the tire using your legs and pop your hips forward. Flip your hands around (palms on the tire) and push the tire away from you in an explosive manner. You must keep your back arched throughout the entire movement to prevent lower back injuries.

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Exercise #3 – Olympic Lifts and Derivatives

Olympic Lifts consist of power cleans, hang cleans and snatches. These exercises must be done explosively which means as fast as possible. The amount of weight doesn’t matter as much as the speed of the bar. Of all the Olympic lifts the snatch uses the most muscles in the body. People tend to shy away from this exercise but I have found it to be the most effective and easier to teach than cleans. In order to achieve maximum results and avoid injury it’s important to employ proper technique and use the right weight when performing Olympic lifts. If you are not familiar with Olympic lifting and their derivatives call your local weightlifting club or email me at sst@sstcanada.com

Results: faster starts and less ground contact time

Description: An explanation of hang snatch from thigh will be provided because it is the most applicable. Starting position – feet are shoulder width apart. Grasp bar with hook grip. To determine the distance between hand placements measure your elbow to elbow distance with arms straight out to sides. From this point move the bar explosively from thighs by extending the hip, knee and ankle joints in a jumping action. This is also known as “triple extension” of the joints. Keep the bar close to the body. This is a very important element and should be perfected. At maximum plantar flexion (up on the balls of the feet), shrug the shoulders, flex and pull with the arms. Pull the bar as high as possible. As the bar reaches maximum height, flex and then rotate elbows around and under the bar. Then fully extend the elbows and lock the bar overhead. Catch the bar with knees and hips flexed and squat down slowly and under control. The hang snatch is a complicated exercise that should only be performed in the presence of a qualified coach.

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In Part II, I will explain the remaining three exercises that focus on increasing VMO strength: squats with chains, wobble board split squats and sled dragging. Strengthening the VMO muscle will help decrease ground contact time which is vital in order to increase speed. The less time a player spends on the ground, the faster he’ll be!

For more information and access to great articles and videos please visit www.sstcanada.com

Larry Jusdanis is the owner of Sports Specific Training Inc. SST has trained thousands of athletes from a variety of sports. SST’s no nonsense approach to training has been used by thousands of athletes’ from a variety of sports all over the nation!

Larry Jusdanis

Owner, Sports Specific Training

Sstcanada.com

Director of the National Association of Speed and Explosion (NASE)

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Mercer T- CFL COMBINE Blog 2!

Mercer and Brett East west CIS football

 

I knew that the road to pro football would be full of sacrifices. That’s why I left home to play high school football in the States, then went to the U of C. I knew that I would have to push my personal limits, on and off the field. The next step is no different. I’ve chosen to work with one of the top trainers and have surrounded myself with people who will help me achieve my ultimate goal. This blog is my journey and I’m happy that you are following it with me. I felt that it was important to tell you where I was, before we go on this journey.

I know that training for the combine will be a gruelling test. It’s why I felt like I needed SST at my side.

Could I train on my own? Sure, but I’ve been working with Larry for several years and he’s proven to be one of the top strength coaches in North America. He gets it and he gets me. He knows the road I’ve travelled and where I want to be. Training for the combine is more than just getting bigger and faster – it’s about mastering the combine drills. I’ve got just over 2 months to prepare and I’m going to work every minute!

My first week back to training was a sore one, it was filled with drop sets of bench press and 10 sets of 8 second eccentric squats. On the running side I have been stressing the technique of my stance and start. There is no better person to be working with than Larry.

Mercer T

U of C